National Radio Project

MAKING CONTACT

Transcript #44-05 Left, Right and Christian (part 1)
October 26, 2005

Program description, guest contact information and audio files at http://www.radioproject.org/archive/2005/4405.html

Beck: This week on “Making Contact”...

Neville McDonald: I believe today the church needs to have a message that civil leadership and politicians can grab a hold of and say, “These people are giving us some hope; these people have some solutions to society’s problems.”

Smith: You can’t just believe that Jesus is your savior; you have to act like it.

Beck: Given all the natural and manmade disasters of Biblical proportions just in the first half of this decade, a lot of people are saying a lot of prayers. In the United States, it so happens that most of those praying are Christians. Even if you're not a Christian, but you still care about the fate of the planet, it's worth understanding how the power of faith shapes society's attitudes and behaviors.

Bartolone: On this special edition, the first of two programs on the Left, Right and Christian, we journey through the reddest county in the nation -- Orange County, California.

Beck: I'm Justin Beck.

Bartolone: And I’m Pauline Bartolone. We’re your hosts this week on Making Contact, a program creating connections between people, vital ideas and important information.

McDonald: Amen!

Man: Oh, Hallelujah!

McDonald: (band begins playing) Come on kids!

Man: Make some noise in this house!

Chorus: Glory! Halleluiah! This is what we've come to do...

Beck: It’s an early Sunday morning at the Grove of Anaheim, a popular concert venue just across the vast parking lot of the Angels baseball stadium. In a few hours the New York Yankees will beat the local team, known officially as the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim.

But right now, under purple lights and giant video screens, about a hundred Southern Californians of all ages have come for more than just entertainment. Swaying back and forth, their hands raised high in the air, they proudly sing the mission of the day:

(music plays)

McDonald: (speaking over the music) What did you come to do, kids?

Audience: Praise the Lord!

McDonald: What have you come to do?

Audience: Praise the Lord!

McDonald: All right. Now I gotta feel that faith of yours...

Beck: (speaking over fading voice of preacher) The preacher is Wendy McDonald, an evangelist and co-founder of Healing Word International. She and her husband came from South Africa to take over Healing Word in the mid 1990's.

This church boasts more than 15 hundred members, who are based mainly in California. And the church says those numbers keep growing. It’s not unusual for 500 people to attend a Sunday service. The church has outreach ministries spanning parking lots, parks and local shopping malls. Its mission: “Win people to Jesus.”

Chorus: (singing over music) I give you praise, for you deserve it. I give you praise, for what you’ve done. I give you praise.

Beck: During the service, a youth chorus sings backup to preachers like Wendy, who makes sure to keep her followers entertained – and moved by God. The two-hour Sunday event includes a dance troop, an awards ceremony for young leaders, and a short film about Christian youth camp. The dress code is southern California casual.

McDonald: You have those gospel shoes on. The shoes of peace. You’re going to tread everything under your feet because the peace of God rules and reigns in your heart. There might be a storm on the outside. But on the inside you’ll not be shaken. Because the peace of God rules and reigns. AMEN! And then the Bible says the kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and (audience members say "Joy") joy and the Holy Ghost….

Beck: Wendy McDonald and the members of Healing Word call themselves Charismatics, a loosely-defined branch of Christian faith that began in the U.S. during the 1960s and is closely related to the Pentecostal movement.

Charismatics believe worship and music can put them in direct contact with the “spirit of God” or “Holy Spirit.” Many Charismatics attend service because they have something to heal. Through prayer and speaking in tongues, these nondenominational Christians get the positive reinforcement they need to carry out God’s work throughout the week. And, like some Christians, they believe that the end of the world is coming soon.

Woman #3: You know that in the Bible it says that in the Last Days, everything that can be shaken will be shaken. And the only thing that remains is what? The kingdom of God. So if you’re undergoing a little shaking on the inside, remember the only thing that remains is the righteousness of God. You are right before him today. Just as though you never sinned. That’s the way he sees you. Tell the person next to you I’m righteous! (Audience says, “I’m righteous.”) Just as though I never sinned. And then tell the person next to you, I have peace! (Audience repeats, “I have peace.”) That means nothing can shake you.

Neville: purpose is to grow from glory to glory to glory. The purpose of the church is to get stronger and stronger. The purpose of the church is to be relevant to this generation. The purpose of the church is for us to make a change in the society in which we live in right now.

The uniqueness of our church has always been that we’re a place of healing and hope. And so we see that God is the overall healer. He heals broken hearts, lives, marriages. We really say that God is a healer, that he can heal people out of any situation in life....

Beck: That's Wendy's husband, Pastor Neville McDonald. After the service, we sat down with Neville to get to the core values of the Charismatic movement.

Neville: The message of faith that we see in the life of the Disciples or throughout the Scripture was that believers had an impact on society to change the destiny of men, the history of men, you cannot read through the Old Testament without noticing that prophets change the destiny of kings. That doesn’t mean we have to walk around in sack cloth and act crazy. But it simply means that the prophets had a message that impacted the leadership, the civil leadership of the day. And I believe today the church needs to have a message that civil leadership and politicians can grab a hold of and say, “These people are giving us some hope, these people have some solutions to society’s problems.” So our mindset shouldn’t be an irresponsible one of get me out of here Jesus, our mindset should be how can I fix things in my society?

And so I see that anyone who will yield to the Spirit of God can be used by the Spirit of God. And so it's just an attitude of, do I want God to use me or not, will I be obedient or not obedient, and then following that obedience and doing what he wants us to do.

Preacher: There’s nothing like God’s presence.

Moreno: Amen!

Beck: Among the obedient worshippers at Healing Word this Sunday, is Lupe Moreno. She lives in Santa Ana, a largely Latino community just a few miles south of here. During the service, Lupe shouts amen, and participates in faith healing with a group of teenagers. We met Lupe two nights earlier at the Orange County Fairgrounds, where she was tabling for the Republican Party. We’ll hear from Lupe a little later on.

Fairground Operator: It takes just one arm to win! Hey, look at the size of that ride!

Beck: While it's no Disneyland, the Orange County Fairgrounds could easily rival the Magic Kingdom as one of the happiest places on Earth. Funnel cakes, Ferris wheels, haunted houses, carnival games and very little visible security. Couples holding hands, the majority of them young people of color. And aside from the strong aroma of elephant dung the fairgrounds are a pretty welcoming place.

On my way to finding Lupe Moreno at the Republican Party table, I’m approached a number of times by random people drawn to my microphone. And I soon find out they’re just as up for a political debate as they are for a ride in a bumper car.

Take George and Louise Giacoppe, a couple of middle-aged liberals tabling for the Democratic party.

George: There are about 425,000 Democrats in Orange County, which may seem like a high number, but it’s a lower number than the Republicans in Orange County, which is a pretty conservative area.

Beck: Do you belong to a church?

George: Yeah, we belong to an organized church. We’re both Roman Catholic, we see that as important in our lives, although I don’t think it drives our politics. I think it’s a personal kind of thing, it’s a personal commitment, I don’t see it as a religious issue within politics, I see that as a separate item.

Beck: So are you concerned at all about the rise of the religious right here in the United States?

Louise: Yes, yes.

Beck: And why?

Louise: Yes, because I sincerely, with all my heart, believe in the separation of church and state, and I see that eroding, and I don’t want that to happen. I think church is church, and state is state, and they should not be mixed.

Beck: As we talk, I notice a man off to the side taking our picture and sarcastically yelling “blame Bush.” He says his name is Mark Samiets and that he’s both a Republican and a Christian.

I ask Mark if he supports George Bush and the war in Iraq.

Samiets: Absolutely, it’s about leadership. Do you know that he has a higher GPA than John Kerry did at Yale?

Louise: So what? He also went AWOL when John Kerry didn’t. Tit for tat.

Samiets: John Kerry also shot Vietnamese with a 50 caliber, which is against the Geneva Convention.

Beck: We were just talking about…

Louise: The Geneva Convention! Tell me about Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib, tell me about the Geneva Convention there please.

Samiets: OK. If you’re familiar with operations other than warfare, in terrorist operations, do you think that using humans in a missile, 300 passenger planes in a building is considered fair.

Louise: You didn’t answer my question. I asked you about Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib. Answer that question.

Samiets: When Osama bin Laden attacked our country, our country, to stay safe and preserve our freedom….

George: Why didn’t we go after bin Laden? For Christ’s sake.

Samiets: We’ve been going after bin Laden…

George: We haven’t, we haven’t.

Samiets: I fought in Afghanistan, I know we we’re going there.

George: We didn’t put artillery in Afghanistan for four years!

Samiets: I’m an artillery officer!

Beck: Tell me more about your military experience.

Samiets: I was in the Army for eight years, and I was a reserve office also. I fought with the 155 Howitzers.

George: And when did you go in?

Samiets: I got in originally in ’91 for the first Gulf War.

Beck: As Mark argues with George and Louise, I remind them that they’re all Christians. And before I know it, both sides in the debate are shaking hands.

I ask them how it’s possible they could all share the same faith but disagree so strongly on politics.

Samiets: It’s the same difference that my fiancée is a female and I’m a male. It’s God’s will. And I think the reason why God created Democrats and Republicans, simplistically, is to foster communication, but not always agree. But in fostering communication, the lines of communication are open. And that’s what he wants. So we can support God’s will. If we’re not talking to one another, His will, will never be fulfilled.

George: I don’t think it has anything to do with God. I think it’s our individual choices. That’s one thing that God did give us, was the ability to make choices. He gave us all free will, each of us free will. And it’s up to us to do something with it.

Louise: We can either do it right, or screw it up.

Beck: Indoors, away from the fluffy clouds of cotton candy and gut churning carnival rides, we finally meet up with Lupe Moreno, one of the members of the Healing Word International church.

Besides being a devout Charismatic Christian, she’s also a political activist, deeply devoted to volunteering for conservative causes.

Making Contact’s Meaghen Keyser picks up the story here.

Keyser: On Friday nights at the County Fair, Lupe Moreno splits her time between registering new voters and passing out crayons and drawings of famous politicians for children to color. She has caricatures of George Bush, Ronald Reagan and Abraham Lincoln, but she says Arnold Schwarzenegger is the most popular with the kids.

Moreno: I just finished being the secretary of the Orange County Republican Party. My term was up in January. I’m a delegate for the 69th Assembly District in the state of California, so I do go up to Sacramento. I’m also the president of Santa Ana Republican Women. And I’m also president of Latino Americans for Immigration Reform. I feel that illegal immigration is a very big problem in the state of California, and we have to do something about it. And I do a couple of other things.

Keyser: Lupe’s father was a coyote – someone who brings immigrants from Mexico into the U.S. to find work and a place to live.

Lupe says the undocumented immigrants who came into her home sexually abused her repeatedly, causing her considerable grief later in life.

After her father passed away, Lupe dedicated her life to stopping illegal immigration, not because of her abuse she says, but for political reasons.

She says those who cross the border illegally are rationalizing sin, because they take jobs, healthcare, and services away from American citizens. She likes to quote from the Bible, “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s belongings.”

As part of her activism, Lupe makes colorful posters and signs that she takes with her to rallies and protests.

Moreno: “Mexico Fails It Citizens.” I made this poster up because I feel that the country of Mexico does not take care of its citizens, and if it did take care of its citizens, its citizens wouldn’t be over here illegally. So that’s what that one says. And this one is for our country, for our president actually “Secure Our Borders.”

Keyser: But Lupe does more than just make posters. She volunteers for the Minutemen, the controversial grassroots border patrol that has sprung up to stop the flow of immigrants into the U.S. Lupe says she had a close call the previous weekend camping out at the U.S.-Mexico border.

Moreno: We’re not supposed to have any contact with any people we see coming illegally. We’re actually supposed to call the border patrol, tell them we see something, and then they’re supposed to take care it. So all we do is get lawn chairs, we got our lawn chairs out, it was kind of getting dark so we didn’t have the binoculars out but we had flashlights and all that kind of stuff. And we were just talking and all of a sudden out of the dark, we were in a gully, and way up on top of the hill somebody started shining a bright light on us and then they started playing Mexican music. They were screaming down to us in Spanish, first, “Welcome to Mexico, our land” and then they started threatening us. And they come with I guess semi-automatic weapons and stuff. And so, the men told me to get in the car. Well, when I got in the car, I have a new car, and all the lights turned on and I don’t know how to turn off the lights so I was sitting there scared that I was gonna get shot. So I started praying, I was praying. One of my friends chased him away, chased the people away but they kept coming back during the night. We didn’t sleep, we didn’t sleep because they kept coming back all night and playing loud music. And that’s when I called my daughters and I said, “You know what, I don’t know what kind of situation I’ve gotten myself into. Please start praying for me, praying for all of us because I don’t know what’s going on.” And so they kept saying, “We’re gonna go get you, tell us where you are, we’re gonna go get you.” And I said you can’t go get me, just pray for me. And so the rest of the night we just stayed awake until five o’clock in the morning and that’s when the men I guess figured that these people were asleep and we all caravanned out.

Keyser: Lupe spent the first ten years of her life in Cottonwood, a small town in northern California where she says she learned everything she needed in life. Her mother worked three jobs and took care of the family, but left after Lupe’s father refused to give up bringing people across the border.

Lupe says she has always known the difference between right and wrong. Since she left the Catholic Church and became a Charismatic, Lupe says she has dealt with that part of her life and she sees the immigration issue as her calling from a higher authority.

In Orange County, more than 30 percent of the population is Latino, the majority Catholic. And in Santa Ana where Lupe lives today, two-thirds of Latino adults are not U.S. citizens. Some are legal residents but many are not.

As the daughter of a Texas woman and a Mexican immigrant, Lupe has become the poster child for immigration reform. Her ongoing battle has conservatives patting her on the back and highlighting her ethnicity to further their cause. At the same time, many in the Latino community say she’s racist.

After first meeting her at the fairgrounds, we stop by Lupe’s home to continue our conversation with her. Fourth of July is long past but Lupe proudly displays lots of red, white and blue in front of her house. An American flag flies above the door. Underneath is an American flag wind chime. There’s an American flag sticker in the living room window. Next to the sidewalk are red, white and blue spray painted flower, and as you walk inside past a statuette of an angel, you’re greeted by a heart shaped American flag and a sign saying welcome. We asked Lupe what motivates her to go so far as to support the Minutemen against illegal immigration.

Moreno: Isn't life funny? I have come from being a married woman that was always married -- seems like forever -- to the man that I just absolutely adored. I was a Democrat and a Catholic, and now I'm divorced, I'm a Republican, and I'm against illegal immigration. But life is funny and I think God just took me in another direction. I never thought I was going to go to the border -- never. And as time got closer, I don't know, God just put it in my heart to go out there.

The Republican Party basically is supposed to stand for, standing for righteousness -- actually, that's one of the little things that I started joking about, is that the Republicans were on the right side of God. At least we're supposed to be. We're supposed to be above the fray -- and this is one of the things I like about being a Republican -- I love God. I absolutely love God.

I grew up around nuns and priests. I grew up with nuns telling us you’re not supposed to lie, you’re not supposed to do this that, you’re not supposed to do that. And I had a very hard mother too that said the same things to us and then I went to school and they said the same thing to us. Love of country, love of God, love of family. And that’s the way I grew up.

Man: (singing over music) Here I am to worship, here to rise…

Beck: You’re listening to Making Contact, a production of the National Radio Project. If you’d like more information, or for a cassette or C.D. copies of this program, please call 800-529-5736. That’s 800-529-5736. You can also visit our website at radioproject.org.

Bartolone: Not all churchgoers in Orange County say keeping immigrants out of the US is doing God’s work. Just across town in working class Santa Ana, Dwight Smith wakes up every day to more than one hundred of the city’s homeless under his own roof.

Smith: (singing) Everybody vertical, in their own way. Rise up and meet the morning, even the rest of the whole day.

Bartolone: This is Dwight’s version of a wake up call to the dozens of people strewn across his hard wood floors every morning. His house is a makeshift shelter, with every inch occupied by sleeping people and their belongings. Many more sleep in his back yard – some with only a thin sheet cushioning them from the cold concrete.

Smith: I wake up before 6:30 because I’m supposed to sing the vertical song. (singing) Everybody vertical, in their own way. And all I want people to do is sit up in bed, and make some part of their body vertical. Because they’ll sleep – so will I, we’ll sleep through anything, right? And it will be 9 o’clock and they’ll finally get out of bed and we’ll be trying to make a 300 person meal and they’ll be in the way. Plus the kids should be in school.

Bartolone: Before long, Dwight is surrounded by people with papers to sign or injuries that need tending to. He’s prepared to meet their demands with kind words and a full tank of gas. The women, children and working poor who stay at the shelter simply call it “Dwight’s Place.” But its formal name is Isaiah House - homeless shelter by night and soup kitchen by day.

Dwight’s sense of humor is almost as persistent as the chaos, the noise, and the clutter of Isaiah house. But, he says, it’s all part of doing God’s work.

Smith: It’s like taking a hundred glasses of water to poor fireman, who have just beat back a blaze and they’re exhausted. And I drop 5 glasses. And everyone focuses on the puddle on the floor - my God there’s puddle on the floor! Well yeah but there’s 95 fireman who got a drink. What’s the problem? These people are the firepeople of Christianity. Because they’re the ones who suffer for our redemption, they’re the ones who go into the flames of indifference, of cruelty and they suffer and then they come home at night, and we take out a hundred cups of water and we spill five.

Bartolone: Dwight wasn’t always a self described vessel for Christ. He converted to Catholicism eight years ago when he took over the shelter with his wife Leia. Before that he’d spent most of his life working for corporate America, and only became religious when he was helping his sister in law find a date by shopping around at local churches.

Smith: I didn’t know anything about religion. I read part of the Bible one time. It was actually a book of stories from the Bible for young people. It was ridiculous. I thought it was ridiculous. I was kind of a Unitarian in high school. We went deBenneeville Pines which is a little place up in the mountains with our little group from San Diego and Ken Kesey and the Merry Pranksters came by in their bus and gave us all acid. (laughing) What an amazing little church youth retreat that was. We dug all these holes in the snow looking for a pound of dope. It was terrible! And my car broke. The linkage froze on my Volvo. You would think a Volvo would work in the snow. But it didn’t, and we had to dig the car out of the snow. So being a Unitarian was a lot more adventuresome than being a Catholic.

Bartolone: Now, at the age of 54, Dwight can be seen driving around town in his white van preaching the word of Jesus Christ.

Smith: This country experiences quadrennial bouts of irreligious behavior when they elect somebody. It’s kind of a travesty. Because we always have Christians who agree not to imitate Christ. (drops tone of voice, imitating politicians) “OK well I’ll continue military funding and I’ll continue dropping bombs. But I’m a Christian! I want you to know I’m a Christian. In principle at least, I think everyone should be Christian. But bomb bomb bomb! Kaboom kaboom! Armed to the teeth Christian.”

Bartolone: But Dwight’s not like many other Christians in Orange County. He’s a Catholic Worker - part of a social justice movement which emphasizes doing the work of Jesus Christ. No one can say exactly who is and isn’t doing God’s work in Orange County, says Dwight, because Jesus makes his words available for anyone to interpret. He’s more concerned about a larger problem of church-goers merely going through the motions of religious tradition.

Smith: A lot of times people just coast. They go to church on Sunday maybe or they go to church on holidays, but they don’t do a lot of serious thinking about what God wants of them, certainly not what Christ of them. I think that they’re side stepping the question, certainly never, not even in Catholicism, which is adamant that we have to do something and that’s a primary difference in the tenets of Catholicism and Protestantism as I know it. Catholicism expressly teaches that if you do not perform the works of mercy you will go to hell. In other words, that you can’t just believe that Jesus is your savior, you have to act like it. And there are seven specific ways they want you to act like it if you’re a lay person. They include feeding hungry people, giving them something to drink, clothing them when they’re naked or ill-clothed, housing them when they’re homeless which is the bugaboo, visiting them when they’re sick and imprisoned, burying them when they are dead. And these are the tasks that we are to undertake in the effort to sanctify the world. We believe that lay people are responsible for the sanctification of the world. The holiness of the world. And that’s going to happen when everybody has something to eat, when everybody has a house, when everybody has clothes. And it’s not going to happen until then. You know the temple stands unfinished until all are housed and in dignity.

Beck: Coming up on Part 2 of Left, Right, and Christian. It’s not just liberal Catholics who are feeding Orange County’s poor population. Christian conservatives are doing it too

Teno: We have beans and rice, we have drinks, condiments, vegetables, meat and soup..

Beck: …as they attempt to “heal” gays and lesbians…

Gini: Our church would not marry two lesbians nor two gay guys, so our goal is to try to love them into making the choices that we believe the scripture says.

Beck:…and call for the union of Christianity and American politics.

Lopez: We have a very proven record of basing our country’s beliefs on a greater power, and that being God.

Beck: That's it for this edition of “Making Contact.” Special thanks to Mike Dunfee, Ronald Rucker, and Dan Turner. Our theme music is by the Charlie Hunter Trio.

“Making Contact” is an independent production, funded primarily by generous gifts from people in the community. We are committed to providing a unique forum for voices and opinions not often heard in the mass media. If you'd like to support our work, or if you have suggestions for future programs, we'd love to hear from you. For a cassette or CD copy of program number 44-05, call the National Radio Project at 800-529-5736. That's 800-529-5736. You can also visit our website at radioproject.org.

Lisa Rudman is our Executive Director, Tina Rubio, senior Producer, Dorian Taylor, Communications Manager, Esther Mania, Outreach Coordinator, Tom Evans, Development Associate, Emily Polk, Production Fellow, and Meaghen Keyser, Production Intern.

Bartolone: I’m Pauline Bartolone.

Beck: And I’m Justin Beck. Thanks for listening to Making Contact.